I served in the military under Jimmy Carter and I can tell you at the time I was ashamed to be an American. When we came into port my biggest hope was that we wouldn't have to stand-to in front of any other nations military vessel. He was, in MY opinion the WORST president during my lifespan. I don't give a shit what he's done since. He was grossly un-prepared for the the job.

Far as Bush is concerned I don't blame HIM for Iraq since almost everyone was behind him at first(including YOUR Senators and Congressmen). I blame him for having mediocre planning and starting the job without a well prepared exit strategy.

I remember how much crap Reagan got while he was President. I don't care what you think of him, history will regard him as a GREAT leader due to his accomplishments. I can tell you the years I spent in his military I was proud to be an American.

I know this about our military today......every mothers-son is a VOLUNTEER, there are no draftees. They protect me and my families freedoms and there is NO WAY I will interfere with the mission they're on. If it meant re-electing George Bush Jr. I'd do it in a minute. There are more important issues at stake than who the face-man for our government is.

For those that believe we are wasting all that money on the war when we could be curing old-age or something, I'd remind you of what happened after Vietnam........we didn't fix diddly and ended up in a recession.

I'm 50 years old; have lived thru numerous administrations including, Nixon, Ford, Bush 1, Clinton, Carter, Reagan, and Bush 2; can remember the day JFK was killed; can remember the way the country was during Vietnam and other conflicts; can remember the economy during the Nixon years; and can remember how the US was thought of worldwide during previous adminstartions to the one currently in power. All that and I'm being dressed down by a 20 year old kid who has voted once in his lifetime and remembers nothing before the Bush 2 administration. He may remember when Clinton was in office but he was 12 and younger. Something's wrong with this picture. Like I've said numerous times before: I wish I knew as much now as I thought I did when I was 17 - 21. Life would so much better.

Oh my - now that is true wisdom. Somehow between the time I was 18 and 25 my dad sure learned a lot!

I hate bushes, trees are better to look at and they don't attract bugs, rats and lower life forms... the same goes with the political ones too....

i'm not that crazy about the bush boys, either. nor do i care for johnson or gordon. i've always been a fan of elliott, jarrett, and dale sr.

- I think technology currently exists to replace our dependance on oil, however, considering there are still trillions (obviously an estimate, I know there is quite a bit left) of barrels of oil still left in this earth waiting to be sucked out and sold at a profit, you won't ever see technology takes it turn. Unfortunately for technology to replace our dependance on oil, every drop needs to used up. If it's (oil) still available to be sold for a profit, there is no impetus for anyone to implement technology (which will be expensive) to replace it.

What would that be?

One of the biggest problems I have with the way the U.S. went into Iraq were the LIES.

LIE#1 I watched Hans on TV, as he was there and if anything was found it was destroyed. I'm talkin' WMD here. By the time of the U.S. attack Hans was saying that there was nothing left in the way of WMD. That's just Hans. There were others who said the same as Hans. Others in the U.S. government! If you listened! BEFORE THE INVASION IT WAS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THERE WERE NO WMD'S!

LIE#2 The Iraqi government helped Bin Laden and was also responsible for 9/11. Again, if you listened, you know that this is a LIE. The Senate intelligence report. The report quotes a CIA review of the prewar intelligence: "The data reveal few indications of an established relationship between al-Qa'ida and Saddam Hussein's regime." The lead Defense Intelligence Analyst on this issue told the Senate intelligence committee that "there was no partnership between the two organizations." And post-invasion debriefings of former Iraqi regime officials indicated that Saddam had no interest in working with al Qaeda and had refused to meet with an al Qaeda emissary in 1998. Bush knew this but for his own reason LIED TO HIS PEOPLE! You and me and I don't like it!

If Bush had said we are going in there to secure the life blood of out nation, oil then wrong or right I would understand. Make no mistake, I know how important the oil is. Without it there would be no semi bringing the goods to Wal-Mart or trips to grandma's house. Hell I wouldn't be typing this if it wasn't for oil!

THERE IS ONE THING I CAN'T TOLERATE AND THAT IS A LIAR!

Hmmm. Have you ever voted?

Having re-read this thread, something I'm repeatedly seeing here, particularly from military/ex-military, is a 'quick, let's jump to the defense of our boys' reaction that's not necessary. Nobody here has criticised, judged or condemned the troops for their role in Iraq....Vietnam, Korea or WWII, for that matter....and nobody's going to.

I find it honourable, refreshing even, that there are still loyal, committed, patriotic and genuinely caring people in this day and age of increasing greed, corruption and high divorce rates, etc. What I find alarming, however, is how many a showing blind loyalty to a war mentality/figure whose unpatriotic ideals saw war as being the only solution to problems HE saw. A true patriot would not send his own countrymen to a foreign land to die for a personal/hidden agenda based on pack of lies.....

Truth is....Iraq posed no direct threat to the US or its territory at the time of the invasion. There were No WMD's or Bush 'd have been shouting it from the rooftop of the White House....and even if there were a rocket or two, which there wasn't, they were still no threat to the US. Shit, most fell well short of the intended target, Israel, during the first Gulf fiasco, so none were ever going to land in downtown Washington, were they

I hate John Howard's guts with a passion, because he sent our young men and women to war and is a two-faced lying weasel, but does that mean I'm unpatriotic? Does it mean I do not love my country?? Far from it, I love Australia, and because its leader is lower than a snake's belly, doing more far harm than good, I'm entitled to say he's as low as snake shit.

No, patriotism is about being fiercely proud of your country....and being willing to defend it should anyone threaten its shores, not launch a pre-emptive 'what if strike' and to hell with the consequences. Being patriotic is not about figurehead worship or following him blindly where ever because he happened to get the top job, but about the position he's supposed to hold/was elected for. Bush was not elected to send your young men and women to die on foreign soil, but to protect and help you grow and prosper....over a trillion in Iraq War expenses is not getting any of you tax cuts so you can better put food on the table, clothes on your backs...its not making the system of health any better or more affordable for anyone, while the pharmaceutical companies get richer and richer unchecked off all your woes/ill health

Is this killing war in Iraq where you want your patriotically paid up taxes to go? Or would you rather see more tax revenue allocated to raising the standard of living for everyone? It's total bollocks that welfare for those less fortunate takes a back seat to Bush's war machine/military funding. In fact, I find it abhorrent that the US Gov't has this 'I'm alright Jack, fend for yourself' mentality, thus reducing welfare to those less fortunate to pretty much eff all and creating a third world nation within your own shores.

(no I don't live there, but the mrs & I have numerous US contacts who have the same or similar illnesses and face far worse problems obtaining and affording proper health care than we do ....so out of the mouths of horses, so to speak.)

You see, patriotism isn't just about the bit of dirt you call home, it's about the people you share that bit of dirt with, and if Bush is going to put your young men and women in harms way to oust a has-been dictator who had pretty much come to the end of his reign anyway, then his idea of patriotism is seriously flawed. No, patriotism should be about protecting your own, by shaking off the warmongering/gun indoctrination and getting rid of the arsehole who declared war on another power, using your loved ones to prove a point.

Ranger I can understand that a soldier needs to validate his personal beliefs and reason with being present on a battle field....his commitment to the job and his fellow troops....but more to the point, Bush needs to validate HIS reason for sending him, any of them....but he hasn't and can't, not when it's all based on a pack of lies. Yes, lies!! I call them lies because the subsequent evidence proves them to be, and still Bush has done nothing to convince the world he had just cause to launch a Saddam witch hunt, using your buddies as cannon/roadside bomb fodder. So tell me, anyone, how he is a true patriot doing that?

So Bush is only 15% as bad as Saddam.

Ya gotta love math....and statistics....

Wow, what a great thread. Thank you everyone for weighing in. I don't think blame extends to the voters, at least that's not where I put it. But even as I write that, I do blame the voters. Blame, but understand. Don't get me wrong, I was surprised Bush was reelected. And that's a whole 'nother thread on whether the American people were duped -- by the spinners and the media and the political process.

I blame the media more than the voters. They didn't get information out. They sat on it for future big, fat books read only by those who already knew most of the information, anyway. The average CNN watcher has no idea the extent of the ineptness of this administration. We're busy watching Terri Schaivo, and deciding if pulling the plug is right or wrong. (Just one CNN focus while all this was going on). Don't get me wrong. In an ideal world, we'd all be informed and base our vote on that knowledge. In reality, though, spin works for a while.

It works for a while, but not forever. The facts are catching up, and I think even the most die-hard Bush supporters are disillusioned. Read between the lines of the thread, and you see people saddened by what this President has done. There are a few who are fervant supporters. Peace be with them. But I hope they read some of this info and it gives them pause. No matter what they think about the war in Iraq, you have to wonder where Bush's head has been on the planning and execution of the war and it's aftermath.

Dontcha just love it when people throw this at you? As though voting actually makes any difference whatsoever. And if you don't vote you have no say.....total bullshit! I'm so sick and tired of this question being asked all the time...as though it were some kind of badge of honor....just seems so childish.

Playing on the title of the post, if Bush is Bad then it stands to reason that the people who allowed him to be the President are equally as bad. I know, no one ever wants to hear that kind of talk. How ever you slice the pie that means the rest of the voting eligible people in the US. Our system of checks and balances fails only because we allow it to happen.

Philly, I'm not at all sure you are wrong. I'm gonna think on this a while, and may even write on it. I think in some respects our system of checks and balances has failed. Perhaps that is what makes me so scared. It is one reason I think Bush is one of our worst presidents in history.

Starkers - this is my last post on this subject due to the fact that this is clearly an emotional battle - which are never won.

There is a saying regarding war. "In war the first casualty is truth."

I could sit here and type for hours regarding the justification or injustice of war and I would not sway any opinions. I have my opinions as does everyone else.

On this point - I will leave you with this - there is information to support all sides of this argument - the problem is of that information - knowing what is true and what isn't resides with a very few people in reality. Were any of us in the room at the time decisions were made - no. It is now a political football with revisionism in full bloom. So be it.

Some things I do know about:

What happens on a daily basis that the public is never made aware of is
voluminous. I have seen details of things that if known would keep most people from sleeping at night. There are reasons for this - and it is not to make sure the poll numbers are rising for the party in power at least not at the top.

The protection of our country and our allies is the primary job of our government. Our government made a decision to act for reasons that were both disclosed and not disclosed.

Is there a threat? In my opinion yes - in others mind no - we should simply negotiate about all our differences then all will be fine. I don't subscribe to this approach.

This thread was and is about President Bush - and the opinion that he is to blame for all that has happened I suppose regarding the war, disaster relief, and many other ills of this country and by extension the world. On that point it has become too hard to follow all the reports, investigations, flip-flops by the parties involved to know the truth.

Finally, it is not about protecting our soldiers or defending them - it is not a knee-jerk reaction either. As you know, I am sure, these discussions have been ongoing for a very long time - with both sides firmly entrenched in their opinion. I believe the search for the truth ended a long time ago. There are still debates of if Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen based on the power of the star chamber. The conflict on these issues has become the reason for the battle now - hence - emotional.

In the case of this president - this country - and this war - truth was indeed the first casualty.

All the best!