you know what i find interesting is when they attack bush and when you bring up that the other side did the same thing. it becomes we are not talking about them we are talking about bush.

I'm sorry, Daniel, I'm just not following you. Can you please elaborate?

Bush lied about everything to the American people...terrorists have been and always be around...as long as you have any government that suppresses any peoples vision of what life should be...the people will rebel. Even more so when you have a head of government that lies about everything and opposes the people.



I find it extremely difficult to believe that considering the spy satellites we have circling the planet. And then theres the fact that Saddam has been a U.S.A. puppet for years handled by the CIA. I'm pretty sure they knew what he had since most of it was given to him by our own government.


Just the thought of him actually thinking/believing that "he" is going to "liberate humanity" from anything scares me more than any terrorist. We would be better off liberated from him. All he has done is cause the unneccessary deaths of innocent iraqis and American troops and created more terrorism than has ever existed resulting in even more innocent people dying. I'll bet all the dead people feel real liberated.



I will support any president that can first liberte his own country from evil...poverty...greed...and so on before he starts entertaining the unobtainable lofty goal of liberating humankind from evil. But he would be so busy with that that I wouldn't have to worry about it.

We need saving from George Bush....not evil. Just the sight of this man nauseates me.

Well everyone I must run - thank you for the brisk discussion - Joe - hang in there - you and all the others have a right to your opinions and should continue to voice them - I for one fought for our right to do so, without hesitation, so do me a favor and use it as well as your right to vote when the time comes.

I so wish there were answers that would resolve the sad issues that we and our children must face in our world.

I say this - if someone comes along that has these answers and more importantly the ability to implement them - they have my vote!

To all - Have a Happy Thanksgiving from me and my family to you and yours.

during this war around 100,000 iraqis have died that is in 4 years. under saddam up to 150,000 iraqis were dieing a year.

he will be gone in a year

Ranger,
I don't think we are really that far off, which probably does surprise you. But most military people I've read suggest Rumsfeld's approach, more tactical, was a problem over Powell's approach, hit the f****ks hard. I'm not saying an intel case needs to be air tight, though I did use those words. But, I think given the evidence, it should have been WAY WAY BETTER than what it was. To have a list of hundreds of targets you can't even prioritize (which is what happened to Kaye) is beyond normal grey area. At one point, we had a chance to buy off a division of Iraqi army with $20 stipens. It would have cost us 1 million. We couldn't get it together, and the result was those Iraqi soldiers became haters of the US. We have to be smart. Electricity goes a long way in winning people over. I think when you lead, you have to give ground to the middle. That's how you come to agreements that work. Otherwise, you're just forcing your views on everyone else -- and they don't like that.

You asked for a list. Give me some credit for giving it to you! And look at the great discussion it generated! We'll never agree precisely on every point, but the fact is, there are real gaps here Bush should have anticipated. Not doing so, in my book, hurts his credibility as a leader.
M

You assume I am huffy and I am not. You did not however answer my question.

I thought I did. You articulate the position of the oil industry very well. I've worked photographing for them on Capitol Hill, so I know their positions. I'm not saying that's bad or wrong, just that it is their position word for word. So, I wondered if you worked for them. As I said, I think technology will be the solution to oil. Hopefully, sooner rather than later.

i agree wuth this

Well everyone I must run - thank you for the brisk discussion - Joe - hang in there - you and all the others have a right to your opinions and should continue to voice them - I for one fought for our right to do so, without hesitation, so do me a favor and use it as well as your right to vote when the time comes. I so wish there were answers that would resolve the sad issues that we and our children must face in our world.I say this - if someone comes along that has these answers and more importantly the ability to implement them - they have my vote!To all - Have a Happy Thanksgiving from me and my family to you and yours.

Thanks, Ranger. God be with you and your family and have the happiest of holidays. I don't think we are so far apart. I'm happy to have your thoughts and appreciate your time.
M

Joe - credit given - I think you did a great job of framing a number of the imperatives involved. I would expect that you could list the true problems we face - and as has been said - a problem well stated is half solved.

Keep working on the answers - save you up some money - and throw your hat in the ring to make a difference, who knows I might just be your biggest supporter!!!

All the best my friend!

Thank you. I gotta run, too I'm gettin' in trouble with the family. Peace.
M

Playing on the title of the post, if Bush is Bad then it stands to reason that the people who allowed him to be the President are equally as bad. I know, no one ever wants to hear that kind of talk. How ever you slice the pie that means the rest of the voting eligible people in the US. Our system of checks and balances fails only because we allow it to happen.

Here's another question that has always made me step back and wonder, at what point in time did being a Representative of the People (got to like that phrase) become known as a politician and turn into a life long careere choice. Seems to me that every citizen should have to do an honest days work for a honest days wages.

Yeah I know everyone is going to jump on this and start in on flaming me. Before you do though step back take a deep breath and then think about this, if only half of the voting eligible people who didn't vote did, we could have a very different picture to look at today. Go ahead and think about, but also realize one more very important thing, the other people that could of been put in the Office of the President all had one thing in common, they were all Politicians.

I feel sorry that you had to see "things nobody should ever have to see"....nobody should have had to have seen them, and that entirely is my point. It's not that I do not support the troops, because I admire and respect those whose are doing bloody awful jobs under the most atrocious conditions. No, what I can not support is the mentality behind sending them there in the first place....the gun happy warmongers who command from the safety of their electoral offices.

I don't know how much clearer I have to make it, war is a terrible thing and nobody's loved one should ever be sent into the vilest of conditions by another who hasn't got the balls to do it himself. If politicians and presidents had to go to war, there would be no fucking wars for our innocents to die or be maimed in.

As for me not having seen the cost first-hand on a battlefield, I have too much love, respect and compassion for my fellow man not to know how horrific it is....and I have been touched enough by the misery of war to know I would never, ever wish anyone to have to endure one single moment of war. I have friends who eventually died horrible deaths as a result of Vietnam related issues....one I had to help many a time because both his hands were blown off by a grenade, not to mention one lung and most of his stomach/intestines thus requiring a colostomy bag. Imagine having to deal with that, no hands, no wife or family to help. He eventually died an awful, painful and lonely death, and I didn't have to imagine having to deal with his injuries, etc...I often dealt with them.

Do not misunderstand me, I know troops in war zones must have 100% plus commitment and dedication for each-other and the task at hand....I never questioned this....what I do question is why they even need to be there art all, why all that energy can't be channeled and devoted to their families/loved ones at home.

The troops are true heroes, for all they do and everything they sacrifice because of the lies, whims and fancies of another....that other who will eventually take all the credit for any positives (which in war are always questionable) that may arise, and attribute any blame due to the generals troops and other subordinates who can take the fall.

Does that explain well enough why Bush is Bad????

Good, god, call a news conference. I'm going to go drinkin' now daniel (not really, but family is getting nuts with me being on the computer.) Have a good thanksgiving and we'll debate again soon.

Thanks for all your thoughts; I appreciate them and respect you tremendously.

m